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OCBE Candidate Answers

10.13.2022

Dear School Board Candidate,

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Oldham First Amendment is large group of Oldham County parents who are passionate about First Amendment rights and concerns in Oldham County. Recently the Oldham County Board of Education (OCBE) public expression policy was deemed unconstitutional by multiple expert Constitutional attorneys (see www.oldhamfirstamendment.com for more information). This has elevated these concerns for many voters in the community. This email is a public request for your opinion or stance regarding a few crucial First Amendment questions as they relate to Oldham County Public Schools and OCBE public expression.

 

This same email is being sent to all 10 candidates running for the 3 open school board positions. We are asking that you return your answers to this same email address no later than 5 PM on Monday October 17, 2022. The answers will then be publicly shared on multiple social media platforms including our 2400+ Facebook followers. If you choose to not answer any questions - which is of course your right - this will also be shared that you declined to answer these important questions from the public.

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These are the answers that were received by the candidates:

QUESTION 1

Do you believe that any current or future OCBE public expression policy should censor ANY viewpoints? If so, why?

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

The word “Any” encourages me to seek further clarification on what falls under its umbrella. Censorship of the First Amendment should never be considered especially as it pertains to criticism of the government or its officials. In addition, suppressing speech is a suppression of thought. The suppression of thought is what Enlightenment leaders fought against and ultimately lead to the founding of our country. It is because of this ideology that we have three branches which act as a series of checks and balances. In part, congress passes laws and the supreme court interprets laws according to the constitution. Historically there are parameters laid out according to precedent in Supreme Court cases. One has a right to have and express their viewpoints, however there are libel and slander laws that protect us against malice and words that are untrue. Also, there are parameters around the use of obscenities and that form of speech in question is typically checked according to the Miller Test derived from Miller v. California.  

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

I do not believe in censorship of public expression apart from acts that are deemed to be sexually inappropriate, or intending harm to another, etc. I firmly believe that we as a community grow when we receive feedback, and hear opinions different from our own.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

No. Public expression is the time that the public of this county has the right to have their voice heard by the school board. The school boards are elected officials and if there is a criticism of them, our first amendment freedoms allow us the right to do so. If the conversation contains hate speech, lewd acts/behaviors or violence, I do believe it should not be allowed. We have children and families that attend and watch public expression.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

I think any community member, parent, OC school's educator, voter, taxpayer, OC citizen or OC stakeholder should be free to speak at public meetings.  Speech is a sacred and important freedom.  I have been at over 25 school board meetings in the last 2 years and have never seen an OC resident speaker who was out of line or who should have been censored.  In fact, I wrote a lengthy article published in the Oldham Era regarding my views after an incident where a father finished, or tried to, his sentence outside his 2 or3-minute time allowance and was approached, at the direction of the Chairperson, by law enforcement and disrupted from finishing his sentence.  I spoke out loudly about this behavior then and I would again as a board member.  I do think that the board should survey the community about out-of-town speakers.  This Board serves this community, and it is my opinion that the majority of speakers should be either living, teaching or have relatives attending school in this district.  As we saw over the last 2 years there are activist groups who do not have our best interests at heart who travel to meetings in order to cause chaos and color the board's impressions of the public will.  I consider this behavior disingenuous and, in some cases, deceitful. I am not a supporter of board members using profanity at meetings and as a board member I would censure that behavior strongly as I would have when a board member used profanity to refer to parent's who were at meetings with signs. However, as we all commonly understand, parents and chief stakeholders like guardians and grandparents have certain dialects and grace should be extended to them in these highly charged important moments.  These are the people who are vested the most, care the most and stand to lose the most when a board goes rogue.  If they get emotional or loud that is their right these are their children and I see no reason to censure an American from stating their opinion boldly when it is so vital that a school board get the point.  WE did see some emotion at some board meetings, as was warranted, and it was not respected and certainly not heard.  When a board disregards the opinions of the chief stakeholders, like this board has continually, the voices will get louder, and they should.  The goal of community involvement is to foster that involvement, not manage it to within a breaking point.  If there are many who want to speak, and it will take a lot of time to hear them all then I would say hear them all because that is a sign that the board needs a serious check up from the neck up on what they are doing and even a more important reason to hear what the community wants to say to them.  At the end of the day, though, hearing and listening are 2 different things. In addition to all of this I would listen to the OC speakers and make my voting decisions based on their opinions every time up to and including the few times I might disagree with them.  If there is applause or heckling, I think it is right and proper to ask the public to refrain from this behavior, but if they do not and they explode in verbal outrage that is their right.  If a speaker makes statements, the public approves of to the point of clapping and statements of approval this is all important engagement that the board should be open to.  If a meeting becomes so charged that it is disruptive to speakers to the point where a few moments of accommodation is not enough, then even more time should be allowed for the speaker as the statements could be deemed more important to hear.  If the board makes a decision that causes a general uproar, then I strongly feel that the vote should be held off until the next public meeting in order to research it more thoroughly and invite more public discussion.  Meetings are not silent classrooms with heads bowed taking furious notes- they are designed to produce discussion opinion and debate and sounds that approve or disapprove of certain things lend to the system of public engagement.  The public is never to be considered a disruptive student in a well-managed classroom but rather the leader in the conversation and the final authority.  I am firmly of the opinion that when the board is acting in step with the community the occasions of uproar simmer down considerably and this is as it should be.  Paid instigators and political groups from outside our county Should be discouraged from using an OC Schools public meeting to voice their agenda and opinions.  If there are no people within our County to state those opinions, then they could be left unsaid or moved to the end of the meeting to be voiced. I am curious why so many people from outside our County felt like they should answer the call of certain factions and disrupt a school board especially during a national emergency and try to sway them as they struggled to do what is best for our District. I would like to explore ways to make sure these things are so transparent that we can all as a community see clearly where these things are coming from.  For instance, perhaps a placard on the podium that says Jefferson County or Oldham County or Trimble County etc. I feel so strongly about freedom of speech that I am unwilling to say I think these actors should not be able to speak but I think we should all be able to tell where they are coming from.  As for the Micah Cain incidents I was there, I was witness to both of them.  In no way did Micah act in any way that was disrespectful or that caused any disturbance above the ordinary disturbance of public meetings in general.  When the police escorted Micah out of the public forum, I was sitting in the audience, and I immediately went out a side door to see what they were doing to him.  I watched for a few minutes as they detained him and violated his rights.  Even in the heat of those moments Micah carried himself with decorum and dignity.  I waited, watching, to make sure that he was fine and did not need any assistance. A witness to government overreach by police forces is sometimes all that is needed to remind them of their oaths. They seemed relieved that Micah was so peaceful and respectful. I was also there the times people from outside the county were heckling OC residents as they spoke, on several occasions, without remark from the board.  It was obvious to me as a spectator, a speaker, a resident and parent in OC that there was an agenda to silence certain speakers.  This is such an unfortunate mishandling by the board that it is criminal.  I have called for the resignation of board members over it several times publicly both at meetings and in articles to the editor of the Oldham Era.  IMO when people do not speak up against tyranny it silences the groups in general and then tyrants abuse their power.  This is something we know from history and from life experience.  I am ashamed it happened here and would never sit silently if it ever happened on any board I was a member of, especially a school board, where the example to students is such an important lesson.  I only know Micah Cain well enough to know that he is an involved and concerned parent and a brave American who was unjustly treated.  I am glad to find out that he pursued the matter using legal channels and that he has acted on the behalf of all of us to protect our rights to free speech and expression.  It is unfortunate that he was put into that position, and I would try to put systems in place to ensure it never happens again to another parent speaking out for what is right.

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

I do not think our public expression policy should censor any viewpoints and doing so would be a violation of our First Amendment right. As an elected County official, we are accountable to everyone-to listen to everyone. Not just individuals that you like or that believe the same thing that you believe.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

Freedom of speech means we can make our own choices on what we express. I wouldn't support our board, which serves its constituents, limiting the viewpoints that can be shared. That would be muzzling the voices that the board should represent.

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QUESTION 2

Do you accept that direct criticism from the public is a part of your role as an OCBE elected public official and is protected First Amendment speech? How would you respond to such direct criticism from a speaker or parent?

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

It is understood that criticism is part of being in public office since you are representing the public. This public consists of various viewpoints and an official should diligently work to represent the people who elected him or her. In addition, I am very familiar with direct criticism from a parent as it is part of the job as a public school teacher. I plan to handle criticism with the same understanding as I did in the classroom; I will approach it knowing we share the same goal in that we are here to support kids and their learning.  

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

Yes, I understand this as part of the role. I would hope that those being critical of me would understand that we are all working toward the same goal of protecting our kids, but understand as well that I cannot please everyone, and will certainly offend; albeit unintentionally. I hope I would always respond in such a way as to show respect to that individual, recognizing that it takes courage to speak up at times.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

Yes.

 

If it is constructive criticism, I would attempt to resolve the issue. Being in law enforcement, you are criticized every day - rightfully and wrongfully. I have learned not to take it personally and every interaction can be a teachable moment for all involved (the recipient and presenter) regardless of outcomes. It’s acceptable to disagree.

At a school this year, I had to serve an EPO on a female parent. She swore at me non stop and made threats of lawsuits. I let her voice her displeasure as long it was not a disruption to students or staff. A staff member stated that she could not believe I allowed that to occur. I advised her that it was her right. I only can or will step in when my duties allow.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

This is a great question.  In my career I have interfaced with the public a great deal and often it was not in cases that were pleasant.  I worked as a Finance Director at a car dealership for 12 years, a finance manager for 2 years and a sales manager for almost 5 years.  In those roles there was a lot of what is known as 'heat'. I was considered the best person on the management team to meet with these unsatisfied persons.  Most of the time I have found that people are upset for all the right reasons. I still find that to be true today.  I am the type of person who wants to hear the criticism.  I want to know why someone is upset with me or the situation or the issue, and I want to address it.  I am not an idealogue in my opinions.  I do not need to believe everything that I think and am very willing to admit error.  I have always looked for people in my life who challenge me, my views and my opinions.  I think that is the best way to come to the best possible clarity and outcome.  I do regret that some people think if they disagree with you that you cannot be friends or value each other.  I do not hold with that world view.  I spend a lot of time researching issues and developing my opinions.  If I missed the mark, I want to re-evaluate.  If I disagree with parents regarding their children, then what I think is not important, my opinion is subordinate to theirs.  What the parents think is the ultimate guide and that is how I would vote.  Every time without hesitation and without feeling like I was going against my own conscience.  I really believe with my whole heart that parents are the ultimate authority and having that responsibility they are the only ones whose opinion carries the true weight of decisions.  Everyone else is in an advisory capacity, including myself as a board member.  I might state my opinion and dialogue about why I disagree, and I might be passionate in that, but the vote, that is where I represent the parents, the community- not myself.  Once elected I would not only expect parents to challenge and criticize me if I am not true to them, but I would also take it deeply to heart and do serious soul searching regarding that criticism.  No single person knows enough to make all decisions in a vacuum and blindly doing what they are told from outside agencies is unfair to the role and the voters and the citizens of OC.  I have always been a person to challenge others and that challenging includes myself.  My only regret in having this uncanny trait is that some people that I value deeply and care about a great deal get offended by friendly debate on opposing opinions.  Even in those situations I am steadfast, consider them my friend still and look inward and re-analyze my own opinions to see if I have some faulty conclusions.  This is a lot of words to say that I stand firmly by the attitude that any public official should be able to accept public censure and be resilient enough to lay out their thought process and respect the person who feels strongly enough to criticize them publicly for it and confident enough not to hold any type of personal grudge.  I don't hold grudges.  I admire people with strong views who speak their minds and I welcome the criticism as a way to improve my thinking or messaging and whatever else someone might criticize me for.  In the interests of transparency these types of things should be public, in my opinion.  No secrets.  No hiding.  If we are going to unite and make OC schools the best it's ever been we have to shine a light on the problems, no matter how difficult. 

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

Absolutely. There are many different viewpoints within our community and I would take any criticism in the most constructive way possible. It would be my duty, again as an elected County official, to hear all viewpoints and make decisions to the best of my ability, for all Oldham Countians.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

Direct criticism is the role of any worker, and it can be used for improvement. As a business owner, I consider my clients my bosses, and with so many bosses I receive constructive criticism on a daily basis. As an art director, I continuously receive feedback that I must process and use or move on. In cases where it's obvious the criticism is not for improvement or positive change, but rather is an attack, it could be considered harassment. It is important to stay focused.

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QUESTION 3

Would you ever advocate or accept turning off the microphone or removing a speaker during a non-threatening non-violent non-expletive speech? If so, why?

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

Public forums should spark civil discourse and should always be encouraged as it contributes to the progression of society. Parameters such as time limits are set with the goal to give all participants voice regardless of the viewpoint. To this end, the voice speaking should be the one at the microphone and not come from an audience or other outside mediums who speak out of turn. As long as it falls within the guidelines set to give voice to all, public expression should be supported.

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

For non-threatening, non-expletive speech, certainly not. Truly, I can't see any reason to remove a speaker apart from the reasons presented in question 1.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

No.

 

I refer you to my answer in question 1. That’s wrong. And a reason to bring a lawsuit by our community.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

No. I think anything that is ever done to disrupt public opinion from being voiced is a violation of the spirit of the term public meeting.  So no, I would never shut off a mic, have a citizen removed or even interrupt a speaker who is trying to get their thoughts across.  Public speaking is hard it can take a little time to get your rhythm and I would always err on the side of more time and grace for public speakers rather than less.  This is even more crucial in my opinion during times when there is crisis afoot.  I would never try to curtail the outcry of a community when they are speaking about the most important issues in their lives, their children.  I spent over 17 years staying late to help people I am not the board member who would worry the meeting is going late.  I am the board member who would worry not everyone was able to speak fully in a way that lends itself to hearing all that is said and is respectful of the seriousness of the issues.  How long a meeting runs is not important to me.  Did we hear the thoughts and opinions of the chief stakeholders and are we giving them the weight they deserve in our decision those are the things I would be most interested in.

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

I would not. As long as a speaker is non-threatening, non-violent and non-explicit and speaks within fair time constraints, the Board needs to be accountable for hearing their thoughts.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

Behavior defines us. Speech is a function of our behavior. Free speech does not set us free from consequences. With that known, I also do not think that means our board can choose to allow or disallow certain people to speak based on their viewpoints. If their behavior is crude, destructive, threatening and/or violent, and they have been professionally reminded of the conduct expectations, the board should have the right to keep their meetings safe and on-task.

This doesn't mean I don't believe in public expression—To illustrate how important our liberties are to me, I wanted to share how I felt during the pandemic: I was incredibly disappointed in our government from the top down—Because my voice was stifled; I could not express my opinion, my opinion didn't matter; I was completely out of control of my own business, family and children. That is NOT how it should be! This is not the relationship I would be looking for for our school board. Our government works for us, and our elected officials are here to represent us. Our voices matter. And we should not be controlled by a larger entity that decides what is best for us, without our input.

There should be rules we all follow to appropriately share our voices because that's how things get accomplished. It should not be the role of the board to choose who can speak, and what they can speak about. It should be our role as citizens to share our voice and concerns in a respectful way.

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QUESTION 4

Would you ever advocate or confirm the banning of a parent or speaker from a future OCBE meeting based on their speech and behavior alone?

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

The freedom of speech protects us against the prosecution of our criticism and opinions, especially those held against the government. It does not, however, protect us from consequences outside of prosecution. With that said, I believe we also have the right to due process. If it is determined via mediation or hearing that an individual acted in a way that disrupted the advancement of civil discourse or is considered a threat to individuals in attendance, then a request for the individual to no longer be permitted on the premises is valid. 

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

No.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

First we must follow State and Federal Laws. I would suggest that we hire a competent attorney that specializes in free speech to assist the OCBE write up a policy that adheres to the current laws and court decisions.

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The banning of an individual would be a board vote. I would assume that such a severe action would only be taken with or after contacting local police for criminal or threatening behavior. The board should consult competent legal authority prior.

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I will not say I would never ban a person without knowing the specific circumstance and speaking to competent legal and lawful authority prior. I also have to uphold the law.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

No way. The banning of certain individuals we saw happen here in OC is simply unconscionable, and I would have debated against it passionately and voted against it.

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

I definitely would not advocate or confirm the banning of a speaker based on the content of their speech. As long as their behavior is non threatening, non violent and non explicit, they have a right to attend any public meetings that they want and speak on whatever topic they choose.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

"I combined two questions" (see above)

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QUESTION 5

If you felt the chairperson or other board member were to interfere with the free speech of a parent speaking at the podium would you speak up and defend the parent's right for freedom of speech? If not, why?

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

This is a challenging question to answer because it starts with acting out of feeling. I believe most individuals will act out of what they feel is right. If there was a scenario where I felt a person’s speech was being violated as it pertains to the answers I laid out in the previous questions, I would advocate for the freedom in question.

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

Yes. Obviously, in a respectful manner to both parties, but advocating for free speech, and public involvement.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

Yes, that is what we are elected to do. We are elected to represent the citizens and their children of this community. I promise you that I will stand up for what I believe is right. I will make my voice and yours be heard.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

I absolutely would. I believe that any type of censure is contrary to the spirit of a public meeting.  I felt that some members of the current board were intimidated by some parents who spoke at meetings and that feeling permeated some of their decisions.  Every single parent that spoke at meetings over the last 2 years was genuine, transparent, professional and thoughtful.  I was a witness to it. I could not figure out why certain members of the board felt so threatened, to the point of increasing security at an alarming rate. To this day I do not understand how any board member could ever feel intimidated by a parent speaking at a microphone.  I think there are possible explanations, it could have been misogyny or posturing to silence the public.  It could have been a key board member out of touch with constituents and flexing her power.  It could have been a mental health issue that a board member was struggling with, and possibly the other silent board members were just confused.  It was unconstitutional in my opinion and therefore illegal to do what the board did to certain speakers.  I would never watch silently as something like this happened.  I would have asked the board member to stay or retract her orders to the police and give the gentleman a moment to finish his thought as any civilized person with respect for fellow man would do.  Or, if that was refused, I would have made a motion to stay the request until there was a vote so the entire community would see how their district voted on this issue. This goes back to the public criticism issue.  Many people in our society have been silenced.  Fear of recrimination, public humiliation etc have effectively silenced people.  I am not one of them.  As I have stated before I will shamelessly represent the voters and community.  I am not kidding when I say shamelessly.  If that means that an unfortunate moment happens, and I would need to ask a board member to cease and desist from violating the constitution publicly I would certainly do that.  Some people may view this as a loose cannon attitude and may want to say that I am not a good candidate for just this reason.  I assure you this is not the case.  I have and am a professional, I understand decorum and rules and respect.  Still, I will not stand by and watch yet another abuse of power without doing something to stop it in its tracks.  As a board member that is a duty that sometimes gets overlooked.  A duty to the board itself is to guard the constitutionality of its actions.  This is perhaps the number one duty of any public office holder.

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

I would. Again as an elected official, it is my duty to advocate for our community, including parents or anyone else that is part of our community. Additionally, if the board chairperson or other board members were being explicit in their speech, I would stand up against this as well. It is important as board members that we are held to the same accountability as the community.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

I am not afraid to stand up for others, and free speech is an important issue. As I have said before, our school board representatives are there to be our voice. Their job is to listen to us as their constituents. In general, speaking up for others is not something foreign to me, as I do this often as a child advocate, even when it's not well-received or is unpopular.

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QUESTION 6

The school board is allegedly re-writing their public expression policy. In your opinion what is the ideal public expression policy? 

SUZANNE HUNDLEY (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JESSICA CRENSHAW (District 2)

As Justice Holmes stated in the case  Schenk v. The United States, words are not protected if they present a clear and present danger. He later gave descent and laid out more parameters to his statement to better define clear and present. I would support any policy that encourages civil discourse, falls within these parameters, and checks out against the Miller Test for obscenity. 

KATE FARROW (District 2)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

SCOTT RAMSER (District 2)

My ideal public expression policy would be one that involves more access and feedback allowing for more public involvement, removing barriers that others have felt to be intimidating/limiting in the past. Obviously, this is considered a business meeting, and the time involved in conducting the meeting from both members of the board of education and members of the public should be considered, but allocating appropriate time for all people to have expression is needed.

ANDREA NEIKIRK (District 4)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

JOE DENNIS (District 4)

My public expression policy would be on the advice and input of a competent attorney and public input. I do believe a citizen of this county has the right to have their voice heard even if myself or others on the board do not agree with their position.

LISA PARIS (District 4)

I think all policies should be short and sweet. I would want it to say something to the effect of:

All board meetings will have a minimum of 15 minutes for public opinion, these minutes will be observed even if there are no speakers on the log for this meeting.

All individual speakers will have a minimum of 3 minutes per board meeting and a maximum decided on a meeting-by-meeting basis.

All speakers who live, work or have current relatives attending OC Schools in the district will be heard.

Answers to all public questions will be posted publicly on the website.

All speakers who have a united statement are encouraged to stand as a group together at the podium in the interests of optics

All groups with the same message for their statement are encouraged to choose a spokesperson for the group and would be given a minimum of 9 minutes and a maximum to be decided on a meeting-by-meeting basis.

No groups with a unified message are required to speak as a group, individual speakers can speak separately as they desire to.

All documentation discussed at every public meeting including working meetings must be visible to the public both online and in person. Including face amount of vendor KDE contracts, Education services contracts and other documents, anything being considered by the board and presented by vendors and curriculum salespeople.

Security and law enforcement at the expense of the board will be limited to one officer for public board meetings.  Any need for additional security would be at the discretion of the local law enforcement either the chief of police or the sheriff and also at their expense as it is their jurisdiction to protect the peace if they see a need for it.  This would serve as a check and balance for situations that may occur from time to time where a board might misuse their employer relationship as a tax collection arm with local law enforcement to militarize and suppress public opinion through force or intimidation.

PATRICK KEHOE (District 5)

DECLINED TO ANSWER

CARLY CLEM (District 5)

The ideal public expression policy allows all people to speak within the same time constraints and to listen to their thoughts, opinions and criticisms.  It’s important as Board members that we hear all viewpoints so we can take these opinions, meet as a group, and make decisions that are best for the students, staff and parents of Oldham County Schools.

DEVAN LINDEMIER (District 5)

"I did not answer #6 intentionally. Not because it's being avoided but because my answers to 1-5 clearly show where I stand, and because I am not a policy writer"

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